Spinoza Thread

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The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution. ~ Bertrand Russell

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[clearsky]

Anyone interested in discussing Spinoza or Spinozism?

I got hooked on him recently and have put all my other study and reading on hold for at least a year. His philosophy is inspiring some current research on the brain and consciousness. See, for example, Looking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow and the Feeling Brain by Antonio Damasio. He argued against Descartes, and, for Spinozists at least, effectively dissolved the mind/body problem.

I am finding Spinoza's writings on God or Nature, the One Substance known through the two attributes of thought (mind) and extension (body), to resonate beautifully with AQAL, transcend and include, the holonic/holarchic vision, as well as basic teachings of Buddhism.

Like the Buddha Dharma, Spinoza's teachings aim to eliminate the suffering caused by ignorance and negative emotions. Like the Buddha, Spinoza teaches right living and right thinking as a means to eliminate suffering and find happiness. And, just as Siddhartha left behind and transformed the political, social, and religious worlds he inherited, Spinoza willingly allowed himself to be excommunicated and created a new ways of thinking about politics, religion, and society.

No hurries, no worries. But if anyone does get hooked like I am, here's a place to share.

[Jana]

Lightmind had a Spinoza thread a week ago...I would like to do some more reading...he seems like one of the first POO masters in history...POO masters are post Mythic, that is beyond concepts, symbols, ritual, reasons and because.
Pragmatic Outstanding Operations=POO
What balls he had, I am amazed he wasn't killed...in his uncontamination by eastern religions Spinoza seems somewhat ahead of KW on certain things pertaining to a rational rational mysticism. KW had to slip with his standards for political reasons in order to incorporate the mythic elements of the eastern tribes.

[henry]

jana to the rescue. i'm glad someone responded to skyguy's inquiry ...thanks ...henry...also, i'm not a wilber reader, but i think his critics get creationism confused with panentheism.

[clearsky]

What balls he had, I am amazed he wasn't killed...in his uncontamination by eastern religions Spinoza seems somewhat ahead of KW on certain things pertaining to a rational rational mysticism. KW had to slip with his standards for political reasons in order to incorporate the mythic elements of the eastern tribes.

Yes, Jana. He suffered terribly. To cope he got together a cozy little international "sangha" that got him thru. I too see Spinoza addressing and even solving some problems KW still struggles with.

Spinoza was a pioneer thinker in his de-mythologizing and secularizing Judeo-Christian culture.

Bob

[Jana]

I actually think that KW was a bonerfied Spinozan for the majority of his career, it is only since he stepped out of pure philosophy and into the public arena in the last 6 years that he was watered down his trip to be more accommodating to powers that already be. In a way this is a larger soul approach that dogmatic entrenchment of the Pure Truth, and probably will go further in bringing more people into the Rational domain...I mean just how long can one stay mythic if cozying up to KW and riding his spaceship to Nirvana. So I get what he is doing, I admire it, I would prefer to have the chilling truth exposed in all its ruthless glory...but Ken believe it or not was always a warm fuzzy guy, with a fast draw if you step on his toes a little too much. You want to go over to Visserland and read some David Lane papers on the evolutiongate affair.

The rest of us unknowns and unwanted hasbeens and neverweres, we can say what we like...we are free!

Here is some of my rant from Lightgate, I love ranting most of all...
At the center of Spinoza's system is the doctrine that everything in the universe -- Nature writ large -- inheres in a single, perfect "Substance." This infinite and eternal Substance is what Spinoza calls "God, or Nature." It alone is self-caused, absolutely determined, and uncontingent upon the existence of any other thing.
In this system, there is no room for a transcendent God Who willfully created the physical universe and Who stands outside of it as its master, communicates with prophets, chooses His favorite nations and individuals, judges, rewards, and punishes His creatures at will -- or performs miracles. Instead, Spinoza's God is totally bound by His own immutable laws, i.e., the laws of Nature. This conception robs the traditional deity of autonomy and strips Him of all anthropomorphic, moral, and psychological attributes through which He had always been conceived in traditional monotheistic faiths.
This is a stunning refutation of the biblical notion that man alone was created in the divine image, and was separated by God to enjoy dominion over all of the inferior species of the earth. Spinoza repeatedly derides the vanity inherent in that traditional view. repudiating the arrogant delusion that man uniquely possesses a mind, or soul, which lives on eternally after the body expires. Romancing Spinoza, Allan Nadler? www.commentarymagazine.com

Seems Spinoza was way ahead of most contemporary humans today.
In a way KW by making a God out of Emptiness/Nonduality is a backslip into a kind of mythic sacredization of the universe, and that he will not come clean and reveal reincarnation as bogus, is PC but not good for his standing in in the halls of timeless philosophy. Consider that if KW was a reallly goood philosopher he would be excommunicated by now....but no, he is too smart for that. Paradoxically his inclusiveness gig has given hope to dying religions, so they jumped on board the Integral Bus...now KW will keep those tired old systems running for another 200 years or more, when they should have died a natural death.

[Jana]

POO Masters are post Mythic, that is beyond concepts, symbols, ritual, reasons and because. POO Masters include Telihard De Chardin, Buckminster Fuller, Tesla, Wilhelm Reich, Robert Sapolsky, Bill Mollison, Osho, Spinoza, Solon, Plato and possibly Idries Shah, Kant and Hume. And yes Ken Wilber for even in his embrace of mythic religions he is still being post-ideally pragmatic. Rudolph Steiner and Gurdjieff were not POO Masters because they still embraced illogical esoteric ideas as though they were reality.

[clearsky]

Consider that if KW was a reallly goood philosopher he would be excommunicated by now....but no, he is too smart for that. Paradoxically his inclusiveness gig has given hope to dying religions, so they jumped on board the Integral Bus...now KW will keep those tired old systems running for another 200 years or more, when they should have died a natural death.

But that is too alarming, that KW is paradoxically (wittingly/unwittingly?) giving hope to "dying religions." However, yes, absolutely, I think you are correct in this observation, Jana.

Because of the non-theistic, non-dual core of KW's integral, I have been puzzled by how followers of the theistic (or even deistic (Mahayana) traditions have bought into KW's vision. The KW integral waters have become muddied of late (the Earpy blogs, mishandled admin stuff, effectively unmoderated forums, intolerance of Visser, et al), so it is calming to have discovered in Spinoza the essence of much of what Wilber originally sought to communicate.

Anyway, like the Buddha counseled, we each have to work things out for ourselves.

But, companions make the going easier. Thanks to Michael D. we have here what seems like a safe, accessible place to hook up.

BTW, Jana, your breadth of learning and analytical insights continue to amaze me. Right now I am working my way through various commentaries and expositions on Spinoza and Spinozism -- especially enjoying Spinoza and Spinozism by Stuart Hampshire this New Year's Eve.

Peace and Understanding,
Bob

[Jana]

I am finally becoming pretty clear, altho I have to still keep my mouth shut in most situations, forums allow some expression of the deeper insights.
But I am still radically under educated...and don't have time for a whole lot of reading, bookstore traffic at work has picked up also so I cannot read much there anymore. I think I will get those books into the store, looks like Spinoza might help make Boulder post mythic.
Hey did you like what I said about Ken being post-ideally pragmatic...that is pragmatism that is so advanced that it doesn't deal directly or dogmatically with the ideal, but allows for what is, and in so doing prepares the ground for new growth..almost like an engulfment process. But consider also what humans did with Jesuses teachers, so KW might not get much further. Like Nietzsche and Nazism, KW's integral might be taking up by the Black Knights and used to promote their pax americanan world domination campaign.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2842384983834100001&q=alex+jones

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." Friedrich Nietzsche

"The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it. " Friedrich Nietzsche

[Jana]

Spinoza...Holland 1632-1677
Marx...Prussia...1818-1883
Wilber...USA...1949-

Spinoza was refuting irrationalism which is only vaguely less rampant today.
Marx was aspiring to a society in which the soul could florish, and we are not there yet by any means.
Ken Wilber, while staunchly anti-subrational gives open invitation for subrational religions to continue to ply their trade...while coming down on the atheists/brights who are attempt to create a secular spirituality.

Each philosopher is a product of their times, responding directly to the needs of their times...therefore rather than say Marx was at chakra 1, you must say that Marx was observant enough to be addressing a chakra 1 disturbance in the course of human collective evolution.
Spinoza was addressing a Chakra 7 issue of post theological spirituality...which we are eons away from arriving at as a world population.
Ken Wilber's inclusiveness might end up producing regression through the continued acceptance of illogical, subrational religious ideas that maintain their viability by masquerading as transrational.

Steven Nadler talks on Spinoza in Session 5 at http://beyondbelief2006.org/Watch/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5640093862168820605&q=type%3Atvshow    ?Daniel Dennett