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[henry]

helpful resources for reincarnation discussions might be the "survival of bodily death" conference summaries at esalen center for theory and research, and the scholarly tome "irreducible mind"....how does everyone like my purple zoot suit? 

[Jana]

I am not interested in entering any helpful discussions on reincarnation...I wish to kill reincarnation dead once and for all!!!  I think I will pull together a full rant and see if any avant guardian watering holes on the web will publish it. I wish to fully look into the tachyon thing before dismissing it 100%, but right now I am at 99.9999999999% dismissing it as the most bogus idea of all centuries for eternity.


The idea of reincarnation probably arose about 30,000 years ago as our rising complexity and gnostic ability became consciously apparent. As our self identity differentiated from the collective mind we must have wondered how we as an individual could have arrived at all these amazing psi abilities and innate knowledge without having to “work” to achieve them. In time the idea of reincarnation became institutionalized in religions and used for social control and justification of slavery. The primitive minds of the people that propagated these ideas for their own benefit did not have the capacity to see the obvious flaws in their philosophy.

For example, reincarnation can be easily dismissed in considering the math alone. The human race as we know it probably arose at some point, through a mutation that occurred in one individual that differentiated us from the other branches of hominoids. The human population on Earth is greater than 6.7 billion, as of July, 2008. So how does one get 6.7 billion recycled souls from the soul of one individual. If reincarnation is true that means that souls divide and transmigrate to many individuals, which means reincarnation is more of a viral infection than a science that explains the evolution of souls. Also if the human species travels out to colonize the galaxy we will not be considering billions, but trillions of individual souls, all from the initial genome of the One. Within the limits of the universe itself there is potential for an infinite geometric progression of human numbers…which will ultimate morph into other species with little resemblance to our current human monad.

And then there is cloning and identical twins—Even though these souls have the same genes they are distinct individuals, perhaps with greater talent for psi with their partner organisms than most—which can be explained through resonance and receptivity. Plus each individual initiates a unique pattern to gene “expression” throughout their lifetime, even if their genes are the same as another. I “know” in my heart that souls do not divide…they are a unique expression of the genes of the individual and the vehicle of connection with God…or unity with all that is.

So it seems that those who “believe” in reincarnation are not very good at math and are quite comfortable in juggling conflicting ideas like genetic evolution and transmigration with complete ease. This ease by which an individual can be persuaded to believe foolish ideas from humanities mythic past shows the suspension of the ability to think for oneself. Though we have made great progress in the last 30,000 years, we still succumb to the “group mind” in an effort to feel included, no matter how insane and illogical the collective-think may be. This shows us that our social animal drives may be one of the main factors in maintaining pathological patterns of politics, religion and economics and why we can still have fascism and resource wars in an age when the human species should be far closer to a mature, noble and sane adulthood! This tendency towards stupidity in numbers is perhaps why the human species world wide is exhibiting the symptoms of delinquent children going after their piece of the pie regardless of the consequences…like the Lord of the Rings on steroids.

[Francis]

Well don't get your panties in a knot over it. I happen to like the purple zoot suit. Clearly you're reacting to the notion of renincarnation because you have some emotional aversion to the idea. I'm not hearing a really rational argument, I sense some insecurity in your zeal. Alternatively, all these people who do like the idea are somehow clinging to it only because they are afraid of death, not because it's 'true'. Or they have some other insecurity. Perhaps it's a story told to people to control them, like the story of santa claus. I don't hear people complaining about that line of lies.

[Jana]

Well I did feel guilty telling my cousin that santa claws didn't exist.
This is another version of that...

Apparently the idea was only about 1000 years old in the literature.



Apparently the Egyptians did not believe in transmigration, but of souls departing to other realms and ultimately ending up as stars in the heavens. There is no trace of reincarnation in the earliest Hindu scriptures [Samhitas or Brahmanas], and it is only when we come to the Upanishads that this doctrine arose which become central to Hinduism. In the Rig Veda [earliest Veda] the soul of the dead is transported to the heavenly realm to live in perpetual bliss with the Gods…into the worlds of Brahman. Of these there is no return. They have achieved eternal bliss.  According to Swami Agehananda Bharati, professor of anthropology at Syracuse University reincarnation doctrine became elaborated around 300 B.C., but not earlier. So it is old, but in its highly articulated form it is not so old — and the way it's talked about now, that's recent; that's "Theosophical Society." In his book, The Tantric Tradition, Bharati points out that there are only two universally accepted presuppositions in Indian religion. One is the concept of the Brahman, and the other is reincarnation.

 Since Socrates called reincarnation an ancient doctrine, it would seem that ideas of rebirth find their genesis sometime before 500 B.C., at least in the cruder and speculative formulations. While it is virtually impossible to put a date on the exact beginning of coherent reincarnation teachings, 1000 B.C. would be a generous estimate for the date of its Indian roots, with 800-600 B.C. being perhaps closer to the mark. In any event, the evidence clearly indicates that it was a speculative philosophy that developed primarily around the Hindu scriptures, the best example of which is the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. http://www.ccel.us/reincarnation.chap3.html


Reincarnation: The Phoenix Fire Mystery : An East-West Dialogue on Death and Rebirth from the Worlds of Religion, Science, Psychology, Philosophy (Paperback)
by Joseph Head

[Jana]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4taCTbK5-Ko&feature=related  —Great talk with Jeffrey Mishlove on Psi and reincarnation and such.

Lord of the "Flies" on Steroids.

"understanding our experience of the Universe rest on
the simultaneous existence of a deeper level of reality"

Actually the entire universe and all its movements from subatomic to the actual structure of the universe total I "see" and "feel" as spiral in nature...for all movement is spiral, including the movement of thought.

I often look at spiritual ideas as being "partial truths" gleaned from our particular insufficiencies and pathologies of knowledge and perspective. Thus reincarnation to me is an idea of a spiritual infant not yet cognizant of the full picture of how things are put together. See-feeling oneself as a cell in the human organism total...both past, present and future is I think a more advanced recognition of our joint humanity. This is the point of realization that I clearly saw during my major kundalini awakening. It took an extreme blowing up of the “personal” through radically heightened senses, psi, precognition, bionavigation, archetypal attractor figures, peaking of personal myth and extreme emotion, for me to finally arrive at the transpersonal perspective after 3 years of this.

Reincarnation doctrine and focus on past lives is rather like personal astrology...looking for maps outside of yourself to define yourself and give spine to your weak sense of identity. Thus I see these forms of self-propping as bandages to assuage the fragile personal identity that we tend to build in a culture that is more caustic and demeaning than building and fortifying of our spiritual selves. Until we create a culture that incorporates genuine respect for truth, psi, love and cultivates the genius of the individual, without trying to turn people into robots to be used and abused by the machine...we will continue to have to use our philosophical bandages and magic potions in order to try and make ourselves feel better.

Rather than linear, and materialist I am proposing a Universe that is far more magical, mysterious and interesting than the explanations of the ancients could ever give us. I would like for us to build contemporary ideas and to explore the edge by whatever means, pulling in our current theories in the physics of the universe and our new cosmologies. Challenging all presuppositions, prior thought and holy cows…especially those that millions or billions of people “believe.”

When one looks at the ways in which we utilize ideas of reincarnation or contact with aliens or channeling or contact with the dead...we see at the center of it all an individual in crisis, a crisis of the personal identity. If we could look into ways in which the individual was allowed, affirmed and rewarded for being themselves - across the board in human culture around the world -  then we would see the lens of spiritual experience become so large and awesome that we would no longer need to cling to the ghosts of mental figments for identity support...and would find ourselves to be all that we truly are...cosmically freaky mysterious and vast creatures beyond measure.

[Francis]

Here's one way to look at it: The karma that is not resolved before death and needs to be worked out exists as thoughtforms in the akashic field. This karma is wandering around looking for new souls to act on the thoughtform and resolve the latent karma. The person so affected by these wandering ‘spirits’ feels that they are the reincarnation of the person that generated the karma. They are really just contaminated with someone else’s karma.

"Attorney Angela Grubbs had a series of vivid dreams and waking glimpses of a past life, with the same characters appearing from one to the other, and she was able to get some names. When she researched them, she found that these people had actually lived in Lexington, Kentucky in the early 1900's."- http://www.ial.goldthread.com/cases.html

"Grateful dead is a folktale present in many cultures throughout the world. The most common story involves a traveler who encounters a corpse of someone who never received a proper burial, typically stemming from an unpaid debt. The traveler then either pays off the dead person's debt or pays for burial. The traveler is later rewarded or has their life saved by a person or animal who is actually the soul of the dead person; the grateful dead is a form of the donor (character that provides magical assistances to the hero while he succeeds.) -Wiki

The story seems to indicate that the karma of the deceased person is taken on by the 'traveler' The [unrepented] Sins of the Father Are Visited Upon the Son.

[Jana]

Good thinking, but
That our present life is somehow a reflection of our personal karma in previous lives is exactly the type of superstitious subjectivity and crime/punishment thought that I want to eliminate with my unpacking of reincarnation. Considering that a vast majority of new lifeforms yet to be born are probably going to be genetically deformed through no karmic fault of their own, except to be born after we stupid humans have destroyed earth’s habitable biosphere through radiation, chemicals, depletion and disruption of all cyclic processes. We can no longer dally in old religions, we HAVE to wake up and change our ways...take response-ability.

Ideas of the resurrection somehow morphed into ideas on reincarnation in the last 3000 years. The story of the resurrection is based on the astronomical precession of the sun through the zodiac and the annual cycle of the virgin (Virgo) birth—growth of the son of the Sun—his death on the cross of the year (solstice-equinox)—suspension in death for 3 days at the winter solstice when the sun remains in the same position on the sundial and then the rebirth or resurrection and ascension to “heaven.” This myth basic to religions is the same astronomical story found in many cultures…detailed in the youtube videos Naked Truth by Jordan Maxwell, Zeitgeist Movie on Religion and David Flynn: Astronomical Precession and 2012.

The star singer priests (the Shining Ones), the Akeru…of prehistory Egypt and of Mesopotamia (between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers) may have been both rawfoodists and white powder of gold initiates. The priest astronomers that arrived at these cosmological stories may have actually believed in the anthropological God’s and mythic relationships they saw in the heavens. Because they took these heavenly signs literally and had knowledge of prophecy by predicting eclipses and comets and even precise foretelling of the mundane seasons, this priest class grew enormous power over the centuries. Since they were the seat of scholarship, writing, records and because of the strict discipline and initiation practices needed to “evolve” into the cloistered priest class…this provided the institutional structure from which churches and religions arose. (Omens of Babylon, by Michael Baigent is an incredible book on the Mesopotamian origins of astronomy/astrology)

Welding great power through alms-taxes from populations in exchange for “belonging” and absolution these church-states grew to enclose the globe in a web of propaganda, profiteering, banking, law and forced control. Such that there is no real difference between religion and politics and military…and besides the occasional bloody dispute between the factions throughout the centuries…it is the same force of manipulation in effect that arose from the original observation of the sun’s passage and the story of the Messiah that arose from the ancient astronomers.

The interesting question is why in the last 3000 years did the ancient resurrection story morph into ideas of personal reincarnation? Perhaps this is because with the development of the “individual” as the “self” emerged from the collective mind to demand its own salvation story, we overcame our personal fear of death by turning the myth of the resurrected son of the Sun into our own personal myth…such that we too could be resurrected after death and if not “rise into the heavens in our rainbow body” then at least get another chance at life—to get it right—to accomplish a sense of perfection that our broken self identity so desperately sought…and which the church and priest class mysteriously “took away from us” in order that we buy it back in gold.

In the book by Julian Jaynes “The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind” he says that until about 3000 years ago, all of humankind basically heard voices. The voices were actually coming from the other side of the brain, but because the two hemispheres were not in communication the way they are now for most of us, the voices seemed to be coming from outside. The seemed, in fact, to be coming from God or the gods. http://www.julianjaynes.org

Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited by Marcel Kuijsten (Editor)

In “The User Illusion” Tor Nørretranders writes that "our consciousness is a user illusion for ourselves and the world ... one's very own map of oneself and one's possibilities of intervening in the world. Nirretranders declares: "Consciousness is a fraud." The realm of the subconscious the "Me" is infinitely richer and must be cultivated if we are to experience the full sensation of reality.

As our full “user” capacities of consciousness come online we need to continually reinvent the maps, language and myths that we use to describe this larger “I” of awareness that is arising. Sticking with the old ones established by the unconscious forces of “civilization” building will not give us the “experience the full sensation of reality” which we are seeking in our deep intuition for wholeness and self-realization. The shadows on the cave of religion are not the true face of God or our own primordial face.

I am not out to debunk reincarnation, but to “unpack” it, with the idea of transforming it into its next incarnation, that of Regeneration. First there was the Resurrection as we feared that the sun would stop in its tracks in the middle of winter and fail to bring the fertility of spring. Then there was Reincarnation as the awakening personal “I” wanted to feel connected to the whole and free from the fear of death. That is not just the Sun or the Son (Christ) would be resurrected, but each of us could have our eternal glory through the new brand of spiritual acrobatics. Now that we see that hoping for the Messiah to save us, and wasting this life for the hope of something better in the next are simple forms of metaphysical avoidance which keep us out of the eternally present Now and give us an excuse to avoid full incarnation within our lifetime.

Sensing ourselves as a cell in the totality of human life and a cell in the totality of All Life IS Christ realization…it is the recognition of the Eternal Now represented by the cross. And through this one taste of immortality we rise above the painful self-concern of the separate ego to realize that “I” don’t go on, Spirit goes on and I am Spirit… This is the transpersonal or Christ perspective. Then we can fully embrace the gnosis of the One and follow our true calling to a brave new tomorrow. Overcoming our fear of death through transpersonal emergence we stop our self destructive reactivity and Re-gene, Regenerate to the Christ body or the immortal body within our one lifetime. Through regenesis or higher gene expression we get to experience a more fuller incarnation within our lifetime. Thus the more primitive ideas of resurrection, reincarnation are themselves transmuted to our current Necessity for preservation and expression of our fullest potential.

[henry]

huge jana, i don't know how you do it  . really.  i'm agnostic about reincarnation, but have vivid memories of once being frankie avalon...Hey Venus.. ..henry

[Francis]

[The idea]that our present life is somehow a reflection of our personal karma in previous lives is exactly the type of superstitious subjectivity and crime/punishment thought that I want to eliminate with my unpacking of reincarnation. Considering that a vast majority of new lifeforms yet to be born are probably going to be genetically deformed through no karmic fault of their own.

This presumes that people and other organisms each possess an independent existence, unaffected by the actions of ancestors and contemporaries. Which of course is utter nonsense. Our present life is affected by all kinds of inherited karma. Some of it is embedded in socialization or even as toxins in the environment. Of course it's not all bad stuff. There's good inherited karma too. There are genetic and financial endowments, all kinds of stuff. Personal karma either gets ironed out in the present life or it gets added to someone else's life. But really, to the mystic, there are no 'other people' So the Golden Rule becomes "Treat yourSelf (i.e. 'others') as you would want yourself treated." Cosmic Justice is not about earthly 'fairness', it's about the immutable laws of energy re-balancing.

[Jana]

No I am not saying that the individual is separate from the karma of the whole, but that blaming an individuals bad luck in this current (only) lifetime on some fictitious behavior in other past lives is plainly morally and compassionately incorrect. This is one of the reasons why I want to evolve the idea of reincarnation into the doctrine of reGeneration in order to reSanitize our spirituality toward a form that really will do some good for the human species and life on earth.

"As above, so below."  “Thy will be done, as it is in Heaven, so on earth.” In the modern age these ancient sayings representing astrological and theological dictums have been changed into “As in zeropoint vacuum energy so too in 3D daily reality.” And “To change your life in the outer domain you need to change your inner “feeling” state and beliefs.”  Pop spirituality, modern theology and spiritual science is perhaps rooted firmly in the most ancient philosophical science of Hermetics. The actual text of that maxim, as translated by Dennis W. Hauck is "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing." This basically saying that God (the good, the true and the beautiful) lies within the subatomic and hyperspacial interdimentiality of all things and to enter into resonance with the Unified Field is to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing….lose the separate self sense and become enlightened.

“True, without falsehood, certain and most true, that which is above is the same as that which is below, and that which is below is the same as that which is above, for the performance of miracles of the One Thing. And as all things are from the One, by the meditation of One, so all things have their birth from this One Thing by adaptation. The Sun is its Father, the Moon its Mother, the Wind carries it in its belly, its nurse is the Earth. This is the Father of all perfection, or consummation of the whole world. Its power is integrating, if it be turned into earth.” "The Emerald Tablet,” Hermes Trismegistus (thrice great). Hermes Trismegistus, means he who knows the three parts of the wisdom of the whole universe: alchemy, astrology, and theurgy.
www.templeofsolomon.org/Etablet.htg/emerald_tablet.htm

[Francis]

"all things have their birth from this One Thing by adaptation" All things are incarnations of the One Thing. If the One Thing keeps doing this over and over, that's reincarnation because it happens over and over.

"You can never do merely one thing.The law applies to any action that changes something in a complex system. The point is that an action taken to alleviate a problem will trigger several effects, some of which may offest or even negate the one intended.--Garrett Hardin

[Jana]

Yes spirit incarnates, but it doesn't reincarnate the same soul...spirit or Universe creates new life endlessly. It is the “same” Spirit that animates BOTH you and me right now that incarnates, but our unique “I’s” are centers of experience for only one lifetime. Thus the term re-incarnate is a confusion of the macrocosm with the microcosm.

Ever since watching  material like Naked Truth I have had a hunger for a more elaborate unpacking of the ancient  religious myths......and now we have it in Secrets of Life And Ancient Knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSQgIhKAyI&feature=related  —Secrets Of Life And Ancient Knowledge (part 1)  —AWESOME!, most elaborate description of Astrotheology and the origins of the story of crucified (seasons) messiah (Sun) throughout world religions. Emperor Constantine (c.274 - 337) was the founder of Christianity. The Nicene Creed was composed in 325 under the sponsorship of Constantine. www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/dec/24/religion.christmas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrcWntw9juM  —John Hagelin, Spirit=unified field at the Plank Scale—conscious, information, formative.

[Jana]

RESURRECTION, REINCARNATION, REGENERATION
Reincarnation is a religious myth in the same way that the resurrection of the Messiah (Sun) was an astromyth. What we need now, for the preservation and evolution of an ennobled “spiritual” humanity is a new myth that promotes the focus on preserving, protecting and expressing the genetic heritage of ourselves and life on Earth. This is the hugest, most important and serious endeavor we could undertake that will demand the most of us spiritually (morally) and intellectually…but by applying ourselves sincerely to the new religion of reGeneration we have a chance at creating a Heaven on earth. Something that both the resurrection and reincarnation myths cannot do…as seen by their track record.

Heaven: No separation between the perfection of God or platonic perfection of pure consciousness and the 3D creation in of the forms matter. Aven nothingness; Bethel. Heliopolis or city of On - City of the Sun.

The followers of the Old Myths have a broad spectrum approach to undermining the establishment of a Spirit-actualized world. The Ring of Power are hell bent on Hell, with their class systems, holy wars, atom bombs, depleted uranium weapons of eternal destruction and atomic power stations. The wholesale propagation of the war machine at the expense of the seeds of life (genetic diversity) and the truth of life (furtherance of the life principle) is the surest sign of a spiritually corrupt (spirit-unactualized) civilization. A civilization that is anything but civil. Certainly a long way off from a cosmopolitan (cosmic community) that promotes the well Being of life, love and consciousness in the universe.

Horus…means Light in the Middle…Hormus, ORMUS.

[Jana]

I am trying to unpack the reincarnation myth in order to raise our operating level out of the religious superstitions of the past, to help humanity gain access full visionary, psychic, gnostic capacities now. To dissolve the spirit-ual suppression and avoidance methods as it were. It is my conviction that unless we increasingly infiltrate the rational-scientific mind into the higher levels of consciousness, then we will remain a dangerous species to ourselves and others. (take PK Man as an example). It is not hard to do...but it does take extreme elevations of consciousness that are associated with peaking Kundalini (lifeforce)...to break through millennia of mythic, symbolic programming of the subconscious and the archetypal storehouse of mental-emotional forms. Other methods of penetrating the veil of conditioning include meta-education, initiatory practices, entheogens, shamanic practices, fasting, vision quests, and spiritual journeys. Once you penetrate your own lens of perception, and thus become a conscious director of your own story of self, then you can focus the majority of your energy/time on the higher arts gnostically received "for the benefit of all life." It is by having a higher perspective view of the collective myths and tools of control and that they no longer hold sway over your Being. And so you can become more fully the Cosmic-Christ, unperturbed by the noise and ignorance of those still engaged in the trance.

This love affair we have with our Muse is the only taste of Immortality of any relevance, in that the fruits of our relationship with our Cosmic-self "can" be of benefit to the whole. But our self-interested ego fortifying attempts at identifying with former lives of "others" can seldom bring any evolutionary results, except perhaps in inspiration or Muse building...ie: a creative relationship with those of similar Muse bent from the past. If we could get that we are not the Other, but simply resonate in a similar frequency with glimpses of their lives...then our understanding of ourselves and the beauty of our unique existence is enhanced...and our gratitude for life—our one chance to express Spirit—becomes overwhelming. Overwhelming gratitude is the true sign of Spirit-actualized connection.

[Francis]

1> help humanity gain access full visionary, psychic, gnostic capacities now.
2>dissolve the suppression and avoidance methods
3>increasingly infiltrate the rational-scientific mind into the higher levels of consciousness,
4> break through millennia of mythic, symbolic programming of the subconscious and the archetypal storehouse of mental-emotional forms.
5> penetrate your lens of perception, and thus become freed from your own story of self
6>focus the majority of your energy/time on the higher arts gnostically received "for the benefit of all life."
7>have a higher perspective view of the collective myths and tools of control and so they no longer hold sway over your Being.
8>become more fully the Cosmic-Christ, unperturbed by the noise and ignorance of those still engaged in the trance.

How's that for an agenda? It rocks my socks Jana. What can I say? You nailed it once again.