What is Integral?

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[Francis]

I'm not asking you to defend him. I'm giving my opinion on his work. Take it for what it's worth, if anything.


Professor Combs is a co-founder of The Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology and the Life Sciences,
~ http://www.sourceintegralis.org/CombsBio.htm


The Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life Sciences (SCTPLS) is an international, multidisciplinary organization, committed to facilitate a scholarly forum to those interested in the research and applications of dynamical systems theory, self-organization, neural nets, fractals, cellular automata, agent-based modeling, and related forms of chaos, catastrophes, bifurcations, nonlinear dynamics, and complexity theories.
~ http://www.societyforchaostheory.org/

[Liz]

Sure. I don't know his work, apart from the Wilber Combs lattice. I had a nice drive, lovely scenerey, some interesting chat and as a facilitator he was congenial.

I'm having an attack of the warm fuzzies and refusing to think too hard:-)

Liz

[henry]

reassure us Francis that you intended to claim that Combs is a cows worshipper,not a chaos worshipper . Overly rational people strolling around CIIS and findhorn are rarer than hen's teeth. ralph abraham is a frequent contributor at esalen. Lazio, the quantum physicists, and evolutionary biologists are famously mystical.

[Francis]

I’ve reread my copy of Combs book Synchronicity last night and, as a result, I am compelled to alter my position. Let me first apologize for the biting tone of my post. Totally uncalled for.

On the one hand, chaos is the source of all manifestation, the prima materia. Yet it needs to be interpreted though an art or discipline like rationalism in order to be expressed. Art and reason bring order out of chaos.

I was thinking that ideal forms are the root of all realized forms. The alternative view is that all realized forms arise from formlessness (chaos). I still have a strong emotional reaction against the idea, but I cannot defend my bias any longer.

As far as Combs being overly rational; I’m certainly as guilty of that as anyone. I guess I was projecting my shadow. Oops. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain…

[Liz]

Very gracious Francis....yes it was a wee bit sharp.........but no matter. Being in the same room as someone doesn't make me responsible for them.

On the one hand, chaos is the source of all manifestation, the prima materia. Yet it needs to be interpreted though an art or discipline like rationalism in order to be expressed. Art and reason bring order out of chaos.

That suggests without rational thought there would be only chaos, yet it seems to me the world was pretty well evolved before anyone had the capacity to bring rationality to it. It sort of feels to me like art and reason IMPOSE order in their interpretation. That's useful, in that it lets us grasp stuff and think about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're not just using art and reason to tie chaos down. Using art and reason like tent pegs..........the next gust of wind and they'll be off agin to who knows where?

Liz

[henry]

Yes. thanks Francis and Liz....to tease this out a bit more i notice in the esalen catalogue that ralph abraham(chaos dude), mary catherine bateson(gregory and margaret meads daughter)and jean houston(mrs. clinton's controversial advisor) will resume the trialogue format started by ralph,terrence mckenna and rupert sheldrake, nov. 20-22 in big sur(see page 7 of current esalen catalogue). i love it when brilliant people have fun together ... no further mention of esalen until i've conquered string theory or after my birthday

[Francis]

Pushing on from there:


The ideal forms are the archetypes. There are several grades of thoughtforms and the archetypes are the most rigid and fixed type of all possible thoughtforms. One way to classify thoughtforms into a hierarchy is to classify them in a way that indicates the extent of their sphere of influence: sigils, servitors, egregores and archetypes. Archetypes having the widest sphere of influence, they are also called “godforms” and “Ideals” - to a Platonist. So the human condition with respect to awareness is: the prima materia appears to be “a world of objects” but only when it is viewed though the lens of the thoughtforms. This is the mechanism by which the material world is fabricated by the brain. I tend to be inclined toward a mechanistic/materialistic worldview so I like the idea that thoughtforms are material objects, in and of themselves. This is debatable since it rests on one’s working definition of the word “material”

When the thoughtforms are transcended (i.e. “the veils are penetrated”), we see the formless foundation of the world in its raw form. In the nude, as it were. Some of the Tibeten mystics call this experience “The View” or alternatively “Samadhi” to the Vedic scholars. Also “no mind” to Zen people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam%C4%81dhi

Listening is a far more difficult process than most people imagine. Really to listen in the way that is meant by the masters is to let go utterly of ourselves, to let go of all the information, all the concepts, all the ideas, and all the prejudices that our heads are stuffed with. If you really listen to the teachings, those concepts, which are our real hindrance - the one thing that stands between us and our true nature - can slowly and steadily be washed away. ~ May 4 “glimpse”

~ http://www.rigpaus.org/Glimpse/Glimpse.php

[henry]

hi Cousin Robertson, and happy Rememberance Day everyone . following up on our Findhorn thoughts, i notice that Rick Tarnas is speaking at universal hall friday evening june12. authentic integral dude . lots of love

[Liz]

Thanks Henry, I'll have a look. Its a loooooooong drive though unless I'm having affew days off. Will see:-)

Liz

[henry]

hank's hero michael murphy will be interviewed by stephen dinan tomorrow(tuesday) noon EDT at SIA radio/ voice america variety. available archived later

[jimtzu]

i was going to clue you into the interview, henry, if you're not a member of SIA i can post it when it's available.

[henry]

thanks Jimtzu and thanks again senor mD for this marvelous site and links.... people can make up their own minds about what Mike Murphy says and his historic integral contributions. i hope folks get a sense of his self-effacing mischievous humor and enduring enthusiasm in the interview

[henry]

George Leonard's memorial service was held last sunday in California. He was an author, journalist, pianist/musician, pilot/veteran, aikido dude, gentleman, husband, father, esalen trustee, originator of ITP with mike murphy(ten years before Wilber invented it). As my alter ego Forrest sez: Integral is as integral does

[Nickeson]

As my alter ego Forrest sez: Integral is as integral does.

Hear! Hear!

[henry]

Gorgeous day in the appalachians; the leaves are out halfway up the taller mountains....My favorite mail day for the past 35 years is the day my Esalen catalog is delivered, which happened today. It is a work of art and you can download it online. This year Esalen celebrates the 80th birthdays of her founders in 1962, Michael Murphy and Richard Price. Those of you a bit weary of the hype, hubris and hysteria of "integral theory", might take a peek at the remarkable culture shifting lives of these two truly integral Men ....uncle henry